Hallucinations, Rejections, and Breakthroughs: The Chaotic Journey of "Common Side Effects" with Co-Creator Joe Bennett & Artist Terrence White
An interview with two animators who've seen it all.
I wanna tell y’all how this interview with Common Side Effects co-creator, Joe Bennett, and prolific animator Terrence White came about. If you recognize the latter, it’s probably because you’ve seen stuff like Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Harvey Birdman Attorney at Law, or, like Freaknik the Musical if you’re really nasty. A keen-eyed reader might’ve seen that Terrence handled all the branding work on this here newsletter.
Okay but so, the interview…I’d seen a preview for Common Side Effects on Instagram, peeped how similar the animation style was to one of my favorite 2024 viewing experiences, Scavengers Reign, and I was immediately like, yeah I’ll be seated for that. And praise Jah, because CSE is absolutely LIT. Now, six episodes in, its two main characters, a mushroom grower named Marshall who has found an ultra-rare Blue Angel Mushroom that can heal pretty much any wound or sickness and his high school friend Frances, an underling in a insurance megacorp, are in some deep-state shit running from the government, other misanthropic ‘shroom heads, and a shady squad of mercenaries with ties to Big Pharma.
So of course, weeks later, I reposted my appreciation for CSE on Instagram and Terrence messaged me saying that he loved the show too and that the creator is Joe Bennett who just so happened to be his brother-in-law. The serendipity of the universe, everyone, it’s a beautiful thing.
So I did what big mouths do and asked Terrence if he and Joe would join me to yap about the show, their journeys in animation and how they’ve seen the game change over the last 20 years. What followed was a truly joyful conversation about the tenacity it takes to successfully pitch, sell, and produce subversive, very Adult animated shows like Scavengers and CSE, the cosmic experience of mycelium, and how animation as a medium and a community of artist has shaped us over the course of our entire lives.
(This interview has been edited and condensed for length)
So, Joe, I know you went to the School of Visual Arts but how did you end up working with Max and Adult Swim?
Terrence: Can we tell them about the irony that you have a beloved show right now and your infamous meeting with [former executive VP of Adult Swim] Mike Lazzo?
Oh let’s fucking go.
Joe: It was in my early 20s and I definitely put Terry in a really awkward position. I had an idea for a show called Cop Drama. I made a trailer for it and I asked Terry to send it to Mike, and it worked its way up the chain. And Terry’s like, ‘people are into it!’ It finally got to Mike, and Terry calls me he’s like, ‘Hey, I’m sorry dude.
TW: I could tell you were so bummed.
JB: He says, Mike thinks it’s cool but he just doesn’t know if it’s the right fit. But listen, he's happy to talk to you if you want.
TW: He might’ve made the mistake of telling me. Mike’s a brilliant guy but also a little temperamental, so you gotta approach him a little cautiously. He’ll cuss you out in a second, but he was just like, ‘Joe’s welcome.’ And I was like alright because he’ll probably take you up on that.
JB: So yeah, I was in Atlanta and I was like I’m on my way. I drove up to Williams Street and I think I caught him off guard. And he was sweet enough to even give me the time of day, which is crazy. Just the fact that he did that for some snotty little arrogant 21-year-old. He’s like, ‘Listen Joe, it’s a smart show, and it’s, I don’t know, kind of a dumb audience.
Come on, man!
JB: I just remember getting so heated up and in hindsight, I think he was right. I’m glad that the show didn’t get made. I needed a lot of time to learn things, and I’m glad that it took as long as it did for me to finally get my first show off the ground.
Terrence: When I saw him talk to Lazzo, I saw that tenacity within him, for sure. That was when I was like, yeah he’s gonna make something happen!
That kinda reminds me of the story of you pitching Common Side Effects to Amazon where they initially bought the show but then passed on it and you were just like ‘we’re gonna show them what’s really good.
JB:You’re always just gonna be surrounded by naysayers and you could show, and then it gets turned down, or they could buy it and say no. People will say, well other networks aren’t gonna want leftovers. That’s a thing. But you could either believe that and not make an effort or you can try and do something about it. Amazon was thinking we’d make something like Community or Parks & Rec but we pitched something like a David Lynch-esque or Fargo-esque sorta show. My worry was that a lot of this comedy is not so much written in the script, but in the performance of the characters. That’s where it comes out. You have to visualize that. There’s a lot of subtlety that you have to show and you won’t be able to see it in the script. And I just think execs in general are used to a very specific thing from animation. This threw them off.
So I said, I’m just going to animate one segment, a little proof of concept sizzle. And since we didn’t have any actors at the time, I had the two DEA agents dancing to Harry Belafonte.
Ah! So that was the origin!?
JB: Haha, yeah. And that along with the pitch bible and everything, we sold it to the same guys who bought Scavenger’s Reign on their way out of HBO, Billy Wee and Aaron Davidson, who were headed to Netflix. It was a nice little parting gift.
This show is so different from Scavenger’s Reign. That one felt so much more about construction, like how the natural world builds upon itself and never stops. While Common Side Effects, at least in the scenes where people are eating the mushroom, feels a lot more about deconstruction, about the breaking down of ego, id; that whole thing. Does it feel like you were bouncing to another extreme while making it?
JB: Yeah there’s a lot of overlapping themes. More than anything, it’s about humans and their relationship with nature whether they embrace a rhythm and a flow in nature or resist it. And the repercussions that come when you are resisting it or abusing it. But also thinking about mycelium as a neural network that has connective tissue with everything, that was in both shows. It’s interesting you say that. I never even thought about it that way but it makes sense. Maybe subconsciously that was going on; it does feel right.
There’s a dialogue between them that feels connected but divergent in their execution.
JB: I did really love the idea of this Blue Angel Mushroom, to use your words, breaking down the ego and the id. Everybody on the show has a totally different experience. They might go into the same sort of portal world, but there are similar motifs that you see with each person’s experience. But you’ll see in later episodes, there’s a sort of cosmic karma too. If you’re making bad choices, you’re probably gonna get a bit more of a worse trip.
Terrence, when did you get into the process?
TW: I did some character work. Less character design and more exploration.
What’s that like?
TW: So that’s the thing, I’ve known Joe for, what, 20 years at least? I started dating his sister, we met, and I gained a girlfriend, eventual wife and then one of my best friends, even though we’re ten years apart. So basically, Joe asked me to participate in some character explorations with this…
JB: If I could interject, Terry’s designs and artwork have always been a huge inspiration. He’s responsible for me getting into animation. He showed me that Memories anthology years ago and that just blew my mind. I watched “Magnetic Rose” and just couldn’t believe people could do something like that. But I was just immersed in Terry’s books. His design and style is a big influence on me. And the way Terry observes the world has always stuck out to me. So I thought having him do a spread or a splash with just a few key words, like oh this character is a car salesman, he does this, he does that; but that’s it. And just go from there. We had a big mood board, it was great.
TW: I loved thinking about faces. In animation, you just don’t see a lot of real faces, or you can’t really differentiate between a lot of characters, unless it’s Looney Tunes or something. But when it comes to human characters, even if it’s the background people in Common Side Effects, you can just see a wide array of faces. So, it was like, let’s think about faces that allow for micro-expressions and mannerisms that you wouldn’t typically be able to get. They have big heads, but for the most part it’s real. You’ve got all the details that are important to allow for a variety of expressions. So I’ve leaned towards that rather than the more minimal cartoony look.
Those faces contribute to the feeling of sustained tension throughout each episode. Like, I’m on the edge of my seat for those entire 30 minutes.
JB: Part of that is our approach to keeping things anchored in reality. That gives you that tension and even when you have these big fantastical things like the portal world, you still have a more centered, grounded thing. It heightens everything else. I love hearing comments on this show when people say, ‘I stopped thinking about it being animated.’ If I can, as a storyteller, immerse you into this world enough that you’re not acknowledging that it’s all hand-drawn and made up, It feels like an accomplishment.
I wonder why that is? Is it because of the animation’s reputation to outsiders?
JB: I mean for me, I went to school for fine arts. I was a painter and eventually taught myself animation. It became a means for me to tell a story. I wasn’t obsessed at first, but as my resources and ability evolved, I got more and more into it. You definitely start to realize there’s a vast difference in respect in the way that people treat animation compared to live action. It’s a strange thing. We’re not even in the same Emmys. I love the Guillermo del Toro quote, “animation’s not a genre, it’s a medium.” But it feels like you can’t be taken seriously, especially with our age, watching animation. There’s really good storytelling out there. There’s some really exciting stuff. And I don’t want to go to live action.
TW: I think in regards to that too, I remember hearing about how if you go to Japan or other Asian countries, you go on the trains and there’s a spectrum of people with their noses buried in manga. All walks of life. But here, I just met a guy in my backyard who was a lawyer or an insurance adjuster or whatever. Probably in his sixties. And he asked me what I do for a living. And he was like ‘oh, dang, that’s cool, man I love cartoons.’
JB: Yeah I should amend what I said and say that this is specifically an American thing, because I think in other countries, there’s a lot more respect for animation.
Yeah it’s interesting because even in Japan specifically, there wasn’t always that respect for anime. They kinda had to be convinced to a certain degree. Speaking of popularizing animation here though, you’ve known Mike Judge for a while but this is the first time you’re working with him directly. What’s that been like?
JB: Oh, he’s great. He's amazing. Wo brilliant and such a chill dude and always has been a big inspiration. Mike and Greg Daniels sort of introduced me and Steve [Hely], so that's how we met. I feel like there's a lot of aligned sensibilities with him and I. He’s done so many voices on the show and can tap into all kinds of characters. You don’t even have to get into abstraction with him.
It was refreshing hearing his voice and I love yall are keeping up the meta-joke of him doing so many voices on a single show.
TW: He really helps to keep up the realism. I mean I know it’s really cliche to say it now, but the first time I saw Beavis and Butthead, I was like, I know those guys. I went to school with those guys.
JB: Yeah! It’s crazy too because people who work with me will say the thing I’m craziest about is lip syncing and, sure enough, I found out that Mike is too. He’ll go in there and be like oh that mouth shape isn’t right, you need to change that.
It’s that immersion! Thinking about the world of animators. I feel a very strong kinship with your folks, your community. Animation truly shaped my life, not just my childhood. You both have been in a community of animators for so long. And, now, when the plight for animation is in such a polarized place. I wonder how y’all have observed the community evolve over time?
JB: It’s definitely an ever-changing thing. I came from independent animation. I’ve met other friends on Vimeo who also were independent and who hadn’t worked on TV. So it’s strange, I’m a little removed from the more industry part of it. Though, I do know a lot of animators that do live out here and work in TV, or, unfortunately aren’t working.
TW: But you have a lot of European artists too.
JB: Yeah there’s a roster of people and talent that is mostly European artists that I’ve been working with and so Common Side Effects and Scavengers, these are folks from FRance, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Mexico, Ukraine. I mean just all over. And everybody brings their own sensibility to the table. Like, the French style is beautifully subtle. A French animator can get so much out of just honing in on the expression on a character.
TW: It’s like the food infrastructure. There’s a totally different diet. We’re nourished differently.
JB: Yeah it’s not to say that American animation is wrong or bad, but it’s just a different thing. And with CSE and Scavengers, I wanted them to come from something totally different.
Scavengers felt very European. The Moebi–
JB: Moebius!
YES! And even the [Genndy] Tartakovsky (creator of Samurai Jack, Dexter’s Laboratory, and Primal) of it all. That quietude. Not very much in the way of exposition.
JB: No yeah, that’s great.
Terry I wanted to get your read on the community too, you’ve been in the game for more than 20 years, I know you’ve seen some shit.
TW: I kind of wish I was a younger animator now. The sensibilities are so much more adventurous and interesting. Not to knock where I came up but it was so much more limited. Now it feels like we’re seeing imagination sorta peak. I could be wrong but I feel like Adventure Time is a real turning point. Like it was so satisfying. Then you have a show like YOLO or the stuff Michael Cusack does where it’s like – and I don't think I’m saying anything wrong here–but might not be the most beautiful stuff, but it doesn’t need to be. It just fucking delivers on the hilarity and the funness.
Animators, now, have a broader taste of art in general. Whereas the guys that I came up with, the typical animator, at least when I first started out, had very limited ideas of what art and cinema is. I’m not trying to knock anything, but they would be people in their thirties or twenties and they would go home and just watch Disney stuff. It’s different now, absolutely.
JB: There’s a pendulum shift, though. You can feel it. I’m always so optimistic about this kind of stuff to the point like, I think we're gonna be getting 2D animated features like Akira, and we’re just gonna be watching ‘em in theaters. I want Satoshi and Otomo movies, and I want to be watching them in a movie theater.
Thanks so much for reading Free Cable. If you enjoyed this joint spread the love to your people! And if not, honestly go get cultured, forreal. Till next week!